- Ikslorin
Where the kill information is easily readable “X [weapon] Y” the hit information is a long sentence. Having these two different styles are not very appealing, as the interface does not use a coherent style. Now this could be solved by going back to the classic full sentences for kills, but there’s no way I’m going to do that, as that is certainly not making for a better viewing experience. A better solution, which would require changes to the game would be a shortened version for hits, like “-> X [shortest limb-descriptor] damage%”.
I don't think anybody else is bothered by the disparity of length between each line.
- Ikslorin
More importantly than the earlier stuff when disregarding information given or taken away, when you have cg_showbullethits on you end up with the same area of the screen with two relatively disjunct responsibilities: Showing current players hits on/from other players + Showing global kills. That does not lend itself to very easily understandable interface.
The aforementioned difference in styles should make it easy for the average viewer to distinguish between kills and hitting info.
- Ikslorin
Should you turn on cg_showbullethits you will end up missing kills, which might possibly be more important to map control than the specificities of the current players hits.
In TS on the other hand, we only have 10 players, not respawning and a generally much slower engagement speed. So, while the argument does not apply as strongly, you do still have to keep in mind, that engagements are usually coordinated in a way, such that more people are being under fire at once. Simultaneously TS very much has a lot of nothing and then a hectic engagement, meaning that all kills are happening very much in a very short time frame.
Alive players are highlighted on the mini scoreboard, so it doesn't really matter.
- Ikslorin
On a most basic level, it is a confirmation of the current player watched actually getting a hit, and this information also being a bit more specific than just the hitsound, which I also have turned on for the stream. On a higher level, the players choices, such as hunting down a player or staying back, are primarily done based on the hit information, where they get a good idea of the total amount of health and their ability to move.
I believe you're grossly underestimating the importance of the results that that information brings to; a big part of this game revolves around gaining the upper hand and capitalizing on it, and how much damage you dealt to your opponent constitutes a large factor in that. As you mentioned, it can also help understand the thought process behind a player's actions.
- Ikslorin
But, there’s one more argument against it, which also in some ways nullifies the one pro I just wrote. This information, especially when used to argue for the choices of players, are only used by a higher level of viewers. But, there’s one thing you have to realize as to what one of my goals are with the stream. My stream is not only for the expert and the master-analyzer, hell if it was, why would I attempt to call GG as late as possible in the game and always try and keep the hype up? The expert does already see it being won after the first few minutes most likely, but I’m also trying to make it appealing to casual viewers and even non-UrT players. The game will at this size primarily get exposure through new releases and mouth-to-mouth, but there’s absolutely no reason also to not attempt making the content created as friendly to casual viewers and people who never played the game. And having a coherent, easily readable and also most importantly not overwhelming interface is one way of obtaining exactly this.
I'm pretty sure if I were new to this game I would want to know whether hitting a player in the head or in the legs made a difference, and consequently how much damage it dealt.
- Ikslorin
- SevenofNine has hit info
This is a argumentum ad verecundiam
- You don’t play with hit information? (You noob)
This is a reductio ad absurdum
- You just don’t understand
This is a argumentum ad hominem
Don't do this, all it does is make you look extremely patronizing for no good reason.
I don't think turning on hitting information would be as detrimental to the viewing experience as you make it out to be, especially when it's being explicitly requested by the large majority of the people watching the stream.
- Chiko
I won't read that.
I can attempt to make the following list as a TL;DR, but that would mean that nuances would get lost, which could skew your argument one way or the other.
- Con: Death messages and hit information are non-similar in style, which is visually unappealing
- Con: One area of the screen gives you two different types of information, which is not focused
- Con: Hit info competes with death messages for space, the first drowning out the second.
- Pro: It shows you the information, on which the player judges the situation.
- Con: Viewers keep track of up to ten people, so the information can quickly get unimportant when switching PoV.
- Con: That information is mainly of value for expert viewers, yet not of importance to casual and non-UrT players, for which I also want to make it watchable.
- ex0tic-
I couldnt care less about the hitting info but please man, higher the gamma, its way too dark.
Now that you mention it, that is very true and should be fixed. I currently got it at 1.0, but I can probably crank it up a bit without making the image look flat and unappealing.
- mvt-
I don't think anybody else is bothered by the disparity of length between each line.
It’s less the difference in length, but more the difference in style. But, It’s very possibly just me nitpicking at the UI and getting upset at a lack of consistency. Also having full sentences written out as part of the UI makes the game look extremely outdated.
- mvt-
The aforementioned difference in styles should make it easy for the average viewer to distinguish between kills and hitting info.
While that is a workaround, that does not solve the deeper issue.
- mvt-
Alive players are highlighted on the mini scoreboard, so it doesn't really matter.
Is it possible to turn off the death messages, to force you to watch the mini scoreboard and not get accustomed to be able to read it at the upper left? That would mean, that you as a viewer would be trained (relatively quickly) to look where the information is always to get, such that in situation where the kill messages would have been drowned out, you still don’t get confused and irritated because you cannot read what you want.
Also, remember that the scoreboard as a spectator is bugged quite often showing people as alive, making that an inconsistent source of information.
I suppose you could also increase the amount of lines and thereby space to which the output can go, but then more of the screen area will be filled with information, minimizing the amount of space left for the game itself.
- mvt-
I believe you're grossly underestimating the importance of the results that that information brings to; a big part of this game revolves around gaining the upper hand and capitalizing on it, and how much damage you dealt to your opponent constitutes a large factor in that. As you mentioned, it can also help understand the thought process behind a player's actions.
I must be, there’s no doubt about that. That is the main reason I started this thread and its counterpart on the urban terror forums, to give the possibility for actually changing my view. It’s wonderful you answered to this thread, mv, since I based this on your comment in chat.
It’s not like I don’t want to have it shown, but the place in which it is has just too many problems. There just must be a better way to show it though… What about the name and healthbars from the free-roam view integrated directly into first person? Now, that would make it look really good.
Or maybe even simpler have the hit information replace the ingame-chat instead.
- mvt-
I'm pretty sure if I were new to this game I would want to know whether hitting a player in the head or in the legs made a difference, and consequently how much damage it dealt.
As a new viewer you would try to catch up on the specificities of the game compared to others, especially the high speed nature of it. Also, if you have played shooters before, you most likely will have a preconception of the amount of damage being varied based on the part of the body hit.
Something like the hard numbers of damage, is way to specific information to be useful, especially at the high frequency of new messages at the top left. As an example I’ve watched StarCraft II for years, which is in my opinion the game with the best viewer experience, yet I don’t give a damn about the specific numbers.
As a test, I send the same image as on the post to a friend of mine having a history in broadcasting StarCraft II. I did it without any information put together with the image, to not colour his opinion. He claimed that the feature on or off would be dependant on the game. If it was slow, then yes, but if it was as fast as Counter Strike (which is nothing in speed compared to Urban Terror) he would think he’d drown in it.
Showing the damage is important, but there must be a better way that we can show it rather than verbose text at the upper left.
- mvt-
Don't do this, all it does is make you look extremely patronizing for no good reason.
Yes, that was quite a misstep. I actually was not able to find a good english way of writing “Reductio ad absurdum”, so I instead just translated the two others “Appeal to authority” and “Attacking the person rather than the argument” to Latin instead for consistency. I will not deny though, that I as a human being felt a little good writing it that way though.
- mvt-
I don't think turning on hitting information would be as detrimental to the viewing experience as you make it out to be, especially when it's being explicitly requested by the large majority of the people watching the stream.
With 40 viewers and roughly ten people asking for turning on hit information, that is certainly a substantial amount of viewers, that’s true. Even if these estimates are wrong, and it is the large majority, or even everyone, question still is, if they actually know what will result in the best endproduct, or just what they want personally? Only one viewer had not played the game at a higher level and didn’t know the format, while all others were experts, who really just want all the information you can get, and presented in exactly the same way that they are used to from playing. If I can go for a little slippery-slope/strawman, then what they really want is just GTV on twitch. 110 field of view, verbose information, and some of them probably even want no commentary at all. Does that give you the best end-product in the end? For them arguably, but that is not the direction I want the content to go, and what I think is better in general.
I’m also currently in the dilemma, that if I actually turn hit information on, I will also thereby reward the behaviour of the various people being overly aggressive and disrespectful. What then the next time they want something changed, which I also don’t believe will result in a better end product? Will I then again have to deal with personal insults thrown at me from all angles?